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Different Results No Radius vs Subtract radius distance dimension

Smasherofprobes
Hello everyone, not easy to explain this one. I have not had to do this in a long time and I am searching for the right answer.

I was tasked with measuring the relationship between 2 punches (Hole and Polygon) and the matching retainer but the distance between is different when I use No Radius VS Subtract radius. Obviously the numbers will be different because of the radius not being used but when I take the total distance from the Retainer and Subtract the total distance I get from the punches the numbers are different.

For example using No Radius I get 13.07 - 12.732 (0.338mm) and for subtract radius I get 7.307 - 6.666 (0.641mm) between CIR1 & LIN2
& No Radius 13.128 - 12.709 (0.419mm) and for subtract radius I get 7.355 - 6.603(0.752mm) between CIR2 & LIN3

Can someone explain why this is? Should I be using No radius or Subtract Radius to find the relationship between the two features?

I dimensioned 2D distance in the same direction as Lin1 for both. I am not the best at explaining things, forgive me Slight smile




  • Here is my code for the Punches 


    PLN1       =FEAT/PLANE,CARTESIAN,TRIANGLE
            THEO/<110.619,384.304,-1036.19>,<0.0003512,0.0003612,0.9999999>
            ACTL/<110.619,384.304,-1036.19>,<0.0003512,0.0003612,0.9999999>
            MEAS/PLANE,4
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<156.163,463.628,-1036.234>,<0.0003512,0.0003612,0.9999999>,<156.163,463.628,-1036.234>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<67.192,463.628,-1036.203>,<0.0003512,0.0003612,0.9999999>,<67.192,463.628,-1036.203>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<70.701,304.98,-1036.147>,<0.0003512,0.0003612,0.9999999>,<70.701,304.98,-1036.147>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<148.42,304.979,-1036.174>,<0.0003512,0.0003612,0.9999999>,<148.42,304.979,-1036.174>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
A1         =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:STARTUP,LIST=YES
              ALIGNMENT/LEVEL,ZPLUS,PLN1
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,ZAXIS,PLN1
            ALIGNMENT/END
LIN1       =FEAT/LINE,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED
            THEO/<59.438,437.873,36.297>,<-0.0096035,-0.9999539,0>
            ACTL/<59.438,437.873,36.297>,<-0.0096035,-0.9999539,0>
            MEAS/LINE,3,ZPLUS
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<59.438,437.873,36.321>,<-0.9999539,0.0096035,0>,<59.438,437.873,36.321>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<58.525,342.912,36.287>,<-0.9999539,0.0096035,0>,<58.525,342.912,36.287>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<58.425,332.348,36.283>,<-0.9999539,0.0096035,0>,<58.425,332.348,36.283>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
A2         =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:A1,LIST=YES
              ALIGNMENT/LEVEL,ZPLUS,PLN1
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,ZAXIS,PLN1
              ALIGNMENT/ROTATE,XPLUS,TO,LIN1,ABOUT,ZPLUS
            ALIGNMENT/END
CIR1       =FEAT/CIRCLE,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
            THEO/<-411.816,135.579,93.024>,<0,0,1>,11.526,0
            ACTL/<-411.816,135.579,93.024>,<0,0,1>,11.526,0
            MEAS/CIRCLE,4,ZPLUS
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-411.757,129.804,93.021>,<0.0102463,-0.9999475,0>,<-411.757,129.804,93.021>,USE THEO=YES
              MOVE/CIRCULAR
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-417.519,136.292,93.026>,<-0.992294,0.1239058,0>,<-417.519,136.292,93.026>,USE THEO=YES
              MOVE/CIRCULAR
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-412.46,141.325,93.027>,<-0.1113674,0.9937793,0>,<-412.46,141.325,93.027>,USE THEO=YES
              MOVE/CIRCULAR
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-406.295,137.179,93.022>,<0.9605247,0.2781948,0>,<-406.295,137.179,93.022>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
LIN2       =FEAT/LINE,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED
            THEO/<-398.758,141.085,90.917>,<0.0026172,-0.9999966,0>
            ACTL/<-398.758,141.085,90.917>,<0.0026172,-0.9999966,0>
            MEAS/LINE,3,ZPLUS
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-398.76,141.085,90.918>,<-0.9999966,-0.0026172,0>,<-398.76,141.085,90.918>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-398.745,136.901,90.917>,<-0.9999966,-0.0026172,0>,<-398.745,136.901,90.917>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-398.735,131.825,90.915>,<-0.9999966,-0.0026172,0>,<-398.735,131.825,90.915>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
CIR2       =FEAT/CIRCLE,CARTESIAN,OUT,LEAST_SQR
            THEO/<-372.477,80.601,92.917>,<0,0,1>,11.545,0
            ACTL/<-372.477,80.601,92.917>,<0,0,1>,11.545,0
            MEAS/CIRCLE,4,ZPLUS
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-372.62,74.828,92.914>,<-0.0247678,-0.9996932,0>,<-372.62,74.828,92.914>,USE THEO=YES
              MOVE/CIRCULAR
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-378.238,80.927,92.919>,<-0.9984035,0.0564848,0>,<-378.238,80.927,92.919>,USE THEO=YES
              MOVE/CIRCULAR
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-372.889,86.362,92.919>,<-0.071348,0.9974515,0>,<-372.889,86.362,92.919>,USE THEO=YES
              MOVE/CIRCULAR
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-366.717,80.956,92.914>,<0.9981158,0.0613588,0>,<-366.717,80.956,92.914>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
LIN3       =FEAT/LINE,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED
            THEO/<-359.374,86.881,90.43>,<0.004723,-0.9999888,0>
            ACTL/<-359.374,86.881,90.43>,<0.004723,-0.9999888,0>
            MEAS/LINE,3,ZPLUS
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-359.371,86.881,90.432>,<-0.9999888,-0.004723,0>,<-359.371,86.881,90.432>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-359.356,82.041,90.43>,<-0.9999888,-0.004723,0>,<-359.356,82.041,90.43>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-359.322,76.568,90.428>,<-0.9999888,-0.004723,0>,<-359.322,76.568,90.428>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
DIM DIST1= 2D DISTANCE FROM CIRCLE CIR1 TO LINE LIN2 PAR TO   XAXIS,NO_RADIUS  UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
AX    NOMINAL       +TOL       -TOL       MEAS        DEV     OUTTOL
M       13.070      0.010      0.010     13.070      0.000      0.000 ----#----
DIM DIST2= 2D DISTANCE FROM CIRCLE CIR2 TO LINE LIN3 PAR TO   XAXIS,NO_RADIUS  UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
AX    NOMINAL       +TOL       -TOL       MEAS        DEV     OUTTOL
M       13.128      0.010      0.010     13.128      0.000      0.000 ----#----
DIM DIST3= 2D DISTANCE FROM CIRCLE CIR1 TO LINE LIN2 PAR TO   XAXIS,SUB_RADIUS  UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
AX    NOMINAL       +TOL       -TOL       MEAS        DEV     OUTTOL
M        7.307      0.010      0.010      7.307      0.000      0.000 ----#----
DIM DIST4= 2D DISTANCE FROM CIRCLE CIR2 TO LINE LIN3 PAR TO   XAXIS,SUB_RADIUS  UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
AX    NOMINAL       +TOL       -TOL       MEAS        DEV     OUTTOL
M        7.355      0.010      0.010      7.355      0.000      0.000 ----#----​


    & Code for Retainer "A" 

    PLN1       =FEAT/PLANE,CARTESIAN,TRIANGLE
            THEO/<112.139,422.875,-1036.206>,<0.000399,0.0003415,0.9999999>
            ACTL/<112.139,422.875,-1036.206>,<0.000399,0.0003415,0.9999999>
            MEAS/PLANE,4
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<147.771,460.513,-1036.232>,<0.000399,0.0003415,0.9999999>,<147.771,460.513,-1036.232>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<77.177,460.511,-1036.206>,<0.000399,0.0003415,0.9999999>,<77.177,460.511,-1036.206>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<77.178,385.24,-1036.178>,<0.000399,0.0003415,0.9999999>,<77.178,385.24,-1036.178>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<146.428,385.238,-1036.208>,<0.000399,0.0003415,0.9999999>,<146.428,385.238,-1036.208>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
A1         =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:STARTUP,LIST=YES
              ALIGNMENT/LEVEL,ZPLUS,PLN1
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,ZAXIS,PLN1
            ALIGNMENT/END
LIN1       =FEAT/LINE,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED
            THEO/<87.762,432.903,21.274>,<-0.0028874,-0.9999958,0>
            ACTL/<87.762,432.903,21.274>,<-0.0028874,-0.9999958,0>
            MEAS/LINE,3,ZPLUS
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<87.762,432.903,21.278>,<-0.9999958,0.0028874,0>,<87.762,432.903,21.278>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<87.735,423.114,21.274>,<-0.9999958,0.0028874,0>,<87.735,423.114,21.274>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<87.711,415.087,21.271>,<-0.9999958,0.0028874,0>,<87.711,415.087,21.271>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
A2         =ALIGNMENT/START,RECALL:A1,LIST=YES
              ALIGNMENT/LEVEL,ZPLUS,PLN1
              ALIGNMENT/TRANS,ZAXIS,PLN1
              ALIGNMENT/ROTATE,XPLUS,TO,LIN1,ABOUT,ZPLUS
            ALIGNMENT/END
CIR1       =FEAT/CIRCLE,CARTESIAN,IN,LEAST_SQR
            THEO/<-438.898,114.86,21.297>,<0,0,1>,12.133
            ACTL/<-438.898,114.86,21.297>,<0,0,1>,12.133
            MEAS/CIRCLE,4,ZPLUS
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-439.197,120.899,21.298>,<0.0495086,-0.9987737,0>,<-439.197,120.899,21.298>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-439.162,108.814,21.294>,<0.0436545,0.9990467,0>,<-439.162,108.814,21.294>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-444.897,115.876,21.298>,<0.9859622,-0.1669688,0>,<-444.897,115.876,21.298>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-432.906,115.91,21.295>,<-0.9849878,-0.1726238,0>,<-432.906,115.91,21.295>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
LIN2       =FEAT/LINE,CARTESIAN,UNBOUNDED
            THEO/<-426.173,120.809,21.115>,<0.0015042,-0.9999989,0>
            ACTL/<-426.173,120.809,21.115>,<0.0015042,-0.9999989,0>
            MEAS/LINE,3,ZPLUS
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-426.173,120.809,21.118>,<0.9999989,0.0015042,0>,<-426.173,120.809,21.118>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-426.163,114.917,21.115>,<0.9999989,0.0015042,0>,<-426.163,114.917,21.115>,USE THEO=YES
              HIT/BASIC,NORMAL,<-426.159,110.986,21.114>,<0.9999989,0.0015042,0>,<-426.159,110.986,21.114>,USE THEO=YES
            ENDMEAS/
DIM DIST1= 2D DISTANCE FROM CIRCLE CIR1 TO LINE LIN2 PAR TO   XAXIS,NO_RADIUS  UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
AX    NOMINAL       +TOL       -TOL       MEAS        DEV     OUTTOL
M       12.732      0.010      0.010     12.732      0.000      0.000 ----#----
DIM DIST2= 2D DISTANCE FROM CIRCLE CIR1 TO LINE LIN2 PAR TO   XAXIS,SUB_RADIUS  UNITS=MM,$
GRAPH=OFF  TEXT=OFF  MULT=10.00  OUTPUT=BOTH
AX    NOMINAL       +TOL       -TOL       MEAS        DEV     OUTTOL
M        6.666      0.010      0.010      6.666      0.000      0.000 ----#----​
  • aren't the punches IN the retainer? I mean, the retainer is what holds the punches. Do you mean the DIE STEEL, the thing the punches are forced through to make the hole in the sheet metal?

    I would NOT use PAR TO XAXIS for the distance since that required that LIN2 and LIN3 are perfectly perpendicular to LIN1, I would use PERP TO FEATURE so that the distance is calculated perpendicualr to the side of the hex.
  • Yes My terminology is incorrect, they are buttons not retainers. I measured the Punches and where they enter to make the hole in the sheet metal Slight smile
  • The 2D distance between a circle and a line measured parallele to an axis is the distance between centroids projected on the axis.
    it can't be accurate because the centroid of the line depends on where you take hits.
    In addition, the vectors of lines are different in both progs, it can be another problem (repeatability ?)
  • I used PERP to feature and got the same results.
    How would you go about measuring this? I Wish I had a file to compare to but we don't. The Polygonal hole is being pulled during production so they wanted to verify the pitch between the punches and the buttons where the punches enter.

    I haven't had to do something like this in about 7 years so forgive me, I'm just not sure why i'm getting the different results by about 0.3mm when using No Radius and Subtract radius and which is more applicable to this situation, or if both are wrong.
  • I would try :
    ASSIGN/V1=(CIR1.XYZ-LIN2.XYZ)*MPOINT(1,1,0)
    ASSIGN/V2=CROSS(LN2.IJK,PLN1.IJK)
    ASSIGN/DIST1=ABS(DOT(V1,V2)).....................................real 2D distance between center of cir1 and line 2 perp to the line
    ASSIGN/DIST2=DIST1-CIR1.R...........................................dist1 minus cir1 radius
    ASSIGN/DIST3=SQRT(DOT(V1,V1))..................................2D distance between centroids (wrong distance)
    ASSIGN/DIST4=DIST3-CIR1.R...........................................wrong distance minus radius.

  • I really don't have much experience with what you are suggesting but I did get it to work... sort of. for some reason my V2 is Red i'm not sure how to fix it. I will research more into variables and try to figure it out. Thanks for your suggestion!
  • In V2, type LIN2.IJK instead of LN2.IJK...
  • in reply to JEFMAN
    Thanks Jef, I will look into this further. you da MAN
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