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Vaccine Conversation Today

DAN_M
Was in a production meeting waiting for it to start. People were talking about random things and of course "Covid" gets brought up. (please realize the irony that I am in a closed & unventilated room with these people..because they were willing to share their vaccine status they get to be maskless...because i refuse to share my status they assume i am not vaccinated and therefore force me to wear a mask).

Production Assistant: "Hey, did you all notice how its literally ONLY the engineers and programmers who don't want to get vaccinated? Why is that?"

Machinist: "They have critical thinking skills. Most of the people here (motioning to the room) do what they're told at work and in life".

Room went dead silent, a few people chuckled, am starting to get really turned off by people. =/ Was very uncomfortable sitting there as a "second class" employee with a mask on.
  • in reply to cheesiechanman
    for #1 regardless of the global population of unvaccinated, we still have >150million of a 'control group'. Even if 90% of the current unvaccinated US population gets the 'poke', it still leaves 15 million unvaccinated as eligible for a control group.

    So, the simple fact remains that the "@georgiaparkerhilton image above is absolutely bonkers".

    For #3, dude, a VAST MAJORITY of covid hospital patients are UNVACCINATED. Seems like whichever method you use for vaccination, it helps.
    Hard numbers, since we like numbers here: (unvax = 431/10,000 vs vax = 26/10,000) that equates to a 4.3% chance of being hospitalized unvaccinated, vs a 0.26% chance if vaccinated. That's 16x higher risk of getting sent to a hospital if unvaccinated.

    Oh and this is just about you at this moment. Could you stomach giving COVID to someone who is more vulnerable in your family, or work group, or friends? Then they maybe dying after contracting it from you? yes it's all hypothetical... but it's reality.
    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-vaccines-hospital-cases-rates-unvaccinated
  • in reply to cheesiechanman
    your numbers for the control group are correct as far as number of people yes. but.... in science what percentage should a control group be. As the control group decreases the level of uncertainty increases. Since we are all programmers here lets use parts for example. Lets say you make a plastic part out of X material. and you make 1,000,000 parts with that material. Now you change the material and make 9,000,000 parts with material Y. All of this over a 10 year period.

    The material X parts you have 4-5 features that are out of spec 5% of the time. Now in the material Y parts 15% of the parts are OOT for the same features. With what level of uncertainty can you blame the additional OOT conditions on the Y material over a 10 year span? So to claim that diminishing the size of the control group doesn't matter based on the amount of people is bonkers. It could be coincidence. It could be process changes. It could be cooling time. it could be handling. but you couldn't blame it 100% or even 60% on the material. What level of uncertainty are you willing to have to place blame on the material alone? This is the idea behind the image above. The smaller the control group gets as a base % of the population the greater the uncertainty in finding the root cause.

    For the #3 comment. You doubled down on the vaccine but didn't address the at home care. If you go to the doctor for strep throat youre sent home with medication. If you have pneumonia you're given medication. If you have cancer your given medication. But if you have C19 its good luck... hope you survive and don't have to go to the hospital. There are no countermeasures. its a huge oversight. Many doctors have been able to treat covid at a 80% reduction in hospitalizations with current prescriptions. I'm not saying the vaccine dont reduce hospitalizations. I'm saying there are other methods that aren't even being considered. to that I ask why?

    And the last thing you said about me. Read the headline of the article again. Keeping them out of the hospital. Not keeping them from getting/spreading Covid. Regardless of if I have the jab or not I would still carry covid and give it to said individual. The vaccine protects YOU. not others around you. It doesn't reduce transmission. All the vaccine does is diminish my symptoms. So regardless of what I do that person would die either way.
  • in reply to cheesiechanman
    Phase 4 clinicals is not about percentages. The study and control group populations statistically generated, and vary depending on the entire trial population, as well as what is available (and statistically justifying any variance). The focus of a Phase 4 trial group is to prevent bias in the study parameters. I mean if you're truly interested here you go as an example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK223329/ in short there can be study groups for clinical trials with just one individual as the entire study (as a result of the scarcity of cases, but it's a clear example of how studies and study sizes can vary depending on what's available).

    -Regarding medication to treat symptoms of COVID, According to the FDA website, there's 1,843 studies for treating symptoms and potential vaccines ( https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=%22Coronavirus+Infections%22). The studies unfortunately take time, lots of time. Until methods are approved by the FDA (the most rigorous of global medical trial standards) hospitals and medical practitioners cannot administer any FDA-unauthorized treatments. If they did, they would get sued for malpractice and lose their medical licenses. If you think other countries effectiveness trials and approved treatments are sufficient, I presume you (again, a hypothetical "you") could fly to that country and seek care there.

    -Regarding spreading the virus. I presume folks who decide to stay unvaccinated also have peers, family, dependents, social groups etc: supporting, bolstering, and propagandizing NOT getting vaccinated... So the chances of his/her family, friends, peers also being unvaccinated are also high. Hence their higher chances of getting hospitalized and dying if you (a hypothetical you) come home with it.
  • What's really comedic to me, is that as soon as someone brings irrefutable facts and logical statements into the conversation, y'all pretty much go quiet.
  • What's really comedic to me, is that as soon as someone brings irrefutable facts and logical statements into the conversation, y'all pretty much go quiet.

    What's really comedic to me is you post at 10:36am and expect people to research and respond to you while they are working.

    But yet, you don't seem (along with the media) bring up anything about adverse effects from the vaccine only the emotional rollercoaster of hypothetical scenarios of killing grandma. However, I met a guy this past week at a children's hospital in which his 14 year old son is fighting for his life with covid, post vaccination. I'm not sure how he is doing as I only met the guy that one time, while my daughter was recovering from surgery.

    I get what you're saying and actually do agree with most of your argument. Well done. However, we still don't know enough about any of this.

    I'm still confused about why the media and medical spokespeople are not preaching healthy eating, exercise, adequate sleep, and boosting the immune system. I mean, I know why...there's no money in healthy people. But take this jab, it's "free" while the Pfizer stock keeps going up! I'm in the boat of: you want to take the jab, take it. You don't, don't. But also, take responsibility for your life and if you're feeling ill, keep away from people and get better. And don't force me (referring to employer/gov't) to inject something into me and threaten my livelihood if I don't. Interesting times we're living in.
  • Not a vaxxer and I've had Covid and I firmly believe that my body is the best defense against the virus and its derivatives. I also feel that we to let this thing run its course, protect those that we can and medicate those that want medicated, medicate how they want at their own risk. I've been taking immune boosters and believe in maintaining a healthy immune system through diet and supplements. I quit smoking 40 years ago, I've lost about 80 lbs over the last 2 years and feel good about myself physically. I've lost family from Covid and I still believe that our bodies are the best defense.

    I firmly believe this virus was man made with the intent to do harm and was accidentally released (I still question that). I believe their cure (the vaccines) for this is responsible for the mutations because none of these vaccines keep you from getting it or keep you from spreading it, hey only claim to lessen the affects of the virus. So.... why take it if it is not a cure? Does it save lives? Quite possibly but in MNSHO, it is not the same as the polio vaccine or the small pox vaccine as those vaccines literally eliminated those diseases with the exception of very rare occurrences in today's world.

    I also firmly believe that this has become as political as political can be and not only in the US but across the world because the elitists (power people in the world) are the ones that haven't been sick or died as other demographics across the world population have. Who have been the most affected by this? The old, the sickly, the poor. The people that require the most effort and cost to keep alive....
  • Not a vaxxer and I've had Covid and I firmly believe that my body is the best defense against the virus and its derivatives. I also feel that we to let this thing run its course, protect those that we can and medicate those that want medicated, medicate how they want at their own risk. I've been taking immune boosters and believe in maintaining a healthy immune system through diet and supplements. I quit smoking 40 years ago, I've lost about 80 lbs over the last 2 years and feel good about myself physically. I've lost family from Covid and I still believe that our bodies are the best defense.

    I firmly believe this virus was man made with the intent to do harm and was accidentally released (I still question that). I believe their cure (the vaccines) for this is responsible for the mutations because none of these vaccines keep you from getting it or keep you from spreading it, hey only claim to lessen the affects of the virus. So.... why take it if it is not a cure? Does it save lives? Quite possibly but in MNSHO, it is not the same as the polio vaccine or the small pox vaccine as those vaccines literally eliminated those diseases with the exception of very rare occurrences in today's world.

    I also firmly believe that this has become as political as political can be and not only in the US but across the world because the elitists (power people in the world) are the ones that haven't been sick or died as other demographics across the world population have. Who have been the most affected by this? The old, the sickly, the poor. The people that require the most effort and cost to keep alive....

    I see your tinfoil hat fits. Wink

    All seriousness, I agree with every point you made. I question the vaccine a lot when it is known not to prevent it, or the transmission of it, yet the government is pushing it so hard then trying to squeeze us that choose not to take it by requiring it (or a negative test within the last week) to go places or, in some cases, to even go to work. What the government is trying to do is raising too many red flags in my mind. There was a meme I saw a week or so ago that was something to the effect of "ever wonder how people were led to their deaths in 1930's Germany. you're seeing it now" (again, something to that effect) and at first I blew it off. Then I thought about it and realized how true it is. Not leading us to death but leading (most of) us to blindly follow those in power without question. One thing I have learned in my 36 years is to question everything. I question this and what this administration is doing.

    I shall take my tinfoil hat off now and go back to work.
  • What's really comedic to me, is that as soon as someone brings irrefutable facts and logical statements into the conversation, y'all pretty much go quiet.

    If you have taken the shot why worry about anyone that hasn't. Your safe.Astonished
  • -Regarding medication to treat symptoms of COVID, According to the FDA website, there's 1,843 studies for treating symptoms and potential vaccines ( https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/resul...+Infections%22). The studies unfortunately take time, lots of time. Until methods are approved by the FDA (the most rigorous of global medical trial standards) hospitals and medical practitioners cannot administer any FDA-unauthorized treatments. If they did, they would get sued for malpractice and lose their medical licenses. If you think other countries effectiveness trials and approved treatments are sufficient, I presume you (again, a hypothetical "you") could fly to that country and seek care there.

    This is the most comedic statement made if you ask me. Why do medications already FDA approved as treatments for other Corona Viruses and other diseases take more time to approve than a new experimental vaccine? You claim to bring logic to the table but it appears you throw it all out the window because you're not looking at it objectively. Your using your bias to make your decision. If you ask me the logical thing to do would be question why something new is being pushed harder than existing treatments. This is not me saying it doesn't work. I am simply stating that I believe it would have been in our best interest to focus our money on pursuing research on already existing treatments.

    Wanna talk facts and data? There are over 286 trials with 4,610 scientists and 411,347 patients all showing that using Hydroxychloroquine ALONE in the early stages of infection reduce hospitalizations by 64%. 75% decrease in mortality. But if not treated early the percentages drop drastically. HCQ is already used to treat a variety of illnesses and is already FDA approved. Why is this not being reported? With a total of 4,665,684 deaths if we had been prescribing HCQ with each positive test there would only be 1,166,421 deaths. That's a totally different situation.

    and those numbers don't include other drugs that can be prescribed with these drugs that could also reduce symptoms and decrease mortality.
  • in reply to cheesiechanman
    Agreed.

    Drugs and treatments are used as indicated, and are explicitly FDA approved to be used as indicated, even as explicitly as dosage constraints.
    --If doctors want to use an FDA approved drug for a treatment that was not in scope with the FDA approval, they are equally at risk of malpractice and potentially stripped of medical license.
    --A simple example: you wouldn't pour vegetable oil into your vehicle's crankcase every 3k miles, until someone else proved it can keep your engine running for 200k miles, right? It's oil, it should work... You going to do it? I bet you say no.

    Normally (pre covid) to get a drug & treatment using a drug FDA approved, it takes ~4 years. Studies that show promising results during early clinical trials can get fast-tracked, with approval from our country's leadership (congress, etc). In addition, I presume FDA has stated criteria to determine which ones are eligible for EUA and accelerated trials.

    Specifically for Hydroxychloroquine & treatment of COVID19 symptoms:
    This trail was terminated:
    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04421664?cond=%22Coronavirus+Infections%22&phase=2&draw=2&rank=5
    because it was not conclusive to help patients. https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4207

    This trial has no results published.
    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04322123?cond=%22Coronavirus+Infections%22&phase=2&draw=3&rank=17

    This one was suspended apparenlty because they couldn't get enough volunteers.
    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04341727?cond=%22Coronavirus+Infections%22&phase=2&draw=3&rank=19

    This one was withdrawn, because they didn't see the need anymore at the time apparently.
    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04342156?cond=%22Coronavirus+Infections%22&phase=2&draw=4&rank=23

    Go down the list i provided. Look for yourself. This is the crap I do to make my own conclusions, and i advise everyone to look at the data, instead of listening to talking heads and redistributing falsehoods, rumors, and memes.
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